Step into the world of airsoft with the respected warriors of Team Eco, where Mike, Kyle, and Max unravel stories of tactical camaraderie and the transition from paintball roots. Each member brings a unique perspective, from Mike's wealth of two decades on the frontline to Kyle's fresh insights as a newbie turned serious player, and Max's journey from paintball field staffer to airsoft game host. Together, they embody the spirit and evolution of Ontario Airsoft, sharing the impact of their commitment and the magnetic pull of their brotherhood in arms.

Diving into the tactical depths, the Eco trio brings their A-game to the discussion table, laying out the framework for joining the ranks of their tight-knit squad. Kyle's trial by fire and the mentorship that shaped his place on the team exemplify the discipline and unity that pulsate through Eco's veins. Off the battlefield, the members stand shoulder to shoulder, reinforcing the idea that airsoft is more than a hobby—it's a sport demanding rigorous training, strategic minds, and an unwavering moral compass. Whether it's the bond forged in the heat of play or the shared growth with allied teams, Eco’s narrative is a testament to the strength found in collective dedication.

Rounding off our tactical talk, we tackle the ethos of airsoft—sportsmanship, community, and the fostering of growth among ranks. The conversation steers through the importance of setting and respecting game boundaries, the mentorship extended to novices, and the balance of competitiveness with camaraderie. As Eco's stories of strategic brilliance and influential mentorship unfold, they remind us that at the heart of airsoft lies a community united by a shared passion, where every member plays a pivotal role in crafting an experience that's as authentic as it is exhilarating.

Action Airsoft Club
www.actionairsoft.ca 905-615-7757

Ballistic Prints
www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089181244866

SlingX
www.slingx.ca

Lightfighter Milsim Airsoft Team www.facebook.com/lightfightersmilsim

Nsceibelab Laser Designs
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Army Issue Surplus Inc.
www.armyissue.com 905-271-1665

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Speaker 1: 0:47

Rental advisory. Now welcome to the Airsoft experience. All right, and welcome to the Airsoft experience. I am your host, michael Mascot, also known as Magic in Ontario Airsoft. Today we've got two gentlemen in studio and one on the line from a team that has been in Ontario Airsoft for a very long time and with no further ado. Welcome Mike, kyle and Max on the phone.

Speaker 3: 1:37

Thanks for having us. Great to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:39

No problem, great to be, here, Awesome. So we are going to let our listeners know all about team Echo, but first I just want to briefly go over each of your Airsoft career. So basically you know a brief summary of how long you've been playing it, when it started and when it turned serious. And let's start with you, Mike.

Speaker 3: 2:02

So for me, I started playing 20 years ago. Wow, 20 years. Yeah, it started. My beginnings were in paintball, like a lot of people, and I actually was playing Airsoft before I kind of knew it was Airsoft. I was using the six millimeter paintballs which are fired out of airsoft guns. They had just opted to load them with paintballs and I was really really, really into the paintball scene. And then I was working at a few paintball fields and I started seeing airsofters coming in and pretty much instantly got hooked. It's like, wow, here's this thing that I was trying to do, or trying to pretend to do, the thing that I could just be doing. So led me immediately into into airsoft. It was a different sport back then, but you know, in its roots it's still the same damn thing.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Awesome. What about you, Kyle? Where did it start for you?

Speaker 4: 3:00

Paintball as well. My dad actually used to work at Sergeant Splatter's back in the day, and so we used to go there quite a bit as I was growing up and my buddies picked up some Canadian tire airsoft guns. So we started with that and I actually ended up buying my first real airsoft gun off JP, and that's how I got involved here. He had said oh, you know, when you're, when you're looking for gear, like, let me know, I can help you out, and if you're ever out like they were playing a lot of Clarington those days he's like you know, I remember the games, Let me know, I'll show you around. And so that's that's when it got serious. So that was I bought the gun off JP 2019. And then I started playing with these guys 2020.

Speaker 1: 3:37

And that that's you know what to touch on that you echo guys have put a lot of airsoft guns into my team's hands actually recently. Mike, I think you're one of the major donors towards the team, updating to to mostly HPA now, I guess, since we started correlating with you guys.

Speaker 3: 3:57

Yeah, I don't remember about remember how many I sold, like 30 or 30. It was a lot. I sold a couple hundred over the last year to get rid of them anyways.

Speaker 1: 4:05

For sure. And Max, what about you? Where did it all start for you?

Speaker 2: 4:10

So I've been playing paintball and airsoft since like 2004. And actually I used to work for a Defcon paintball their indoor field when they just opened. It was very close to me and I met JP. He showed up one day. He opened his gun case and I was blown away by like airsoft guns. I'd been playing like scenario paintball so I was buying like paintball guns that looked like MP5s. I had one that looked like an XM8 for a long time and then he lent me a gun for the day and after that basically I started playing airsoft full time with Echo and since then I've been actually hosted a lot of games. I used to host that Sergeant Splatter's weekly. I hosted at Defcon Outdoor. I hosted at TQB back when that was a field and actually recently I've been. Well before Siege closed I was running it for the last three years along with Aaron and Ryan the other managers there.

Speaker 1: 5:02

For sure. That's actually the first time I actually met. You was at Siege. I think that my team was training there for a morning, I believe a while ago. I think that's the first time we met, but it sounds to me obviously other than you know Kyle, which is the one of the newbies, I guess you would say on Echo. You guys have been around for a very long time in Ontario Airsoft.

Speaker 3: 5:28

Since 2006. So we're 18 years currently 18 years.

Speaker 1: 5:33

All under the band of Echo. All under the band of Echo. Wow, other than you, you're.

Speaker 4: 5:41

My fourth year.

Speaker 1: 5:41

Fourth year of Echo, so is Kyle the one of the newest members, or I guess Keegan would be.

Speaker 3: 5:47

Keegan's our newest member. So basically Keegan would be the newest, then Dobby would be the next newest and I think Dobby's in for two years or so, two and a half maybe. It's funny when teams come to us and they say you know I've been around for a while, you know we've been a team for two years, like those are. Our rookies are just getting broken in at five, six years.

Speaker 1: 6:10

Yeah, I hear that Like. Even for our team it's a minimum of two years before you're even considered to be looked at to get a patch to join us for sure.

Speaker 3: 6:19

How long have you been with us, Max?

Speaker 2: 6:21

I've been with Echo since 2006 or 2007. So yeah, almost 18 years as well.

Speaker 1: 6:27

Wow and Max, I know you are a crazy CQB player is what the community and myself have noticed. Do you want to touch a bit on where all that kind of came in? Is that like siege-oriented days?

Speaker 2: 6:44

To be honest, I think I'll kind of start at Sergeant Splatters. That's where I started playing paintball. I was going there on my own as an individual guy and you know, competing against some of these guys with a football gun. I only had like a very cheap Canadian tire gun, but you quickly learn one to move one not to move, one to shoot one not to shoot, and basically you kind of learn how to move up the field. And that's kind of the basis of CQB is understanding how to navigate through the environment.

Speaker 1: 7:10

Yeah, for sure, that's good advice.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Seagr is a bit different, like you have to really work together with your team and understand what's happening on the field at all times, like on different sides of the field, and also how to take out like key positions throughout the field. That are kind of bottlenecks, but overall, like teamwork is pretty critical. When it comes to CQB, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1: 7:30

I agree 100%. So let's kind of backtrack a little bit and let's let our listeners figure out. What is Echo? Where did the name come from, what does it stand for, what is it and who the fuck are they?

Speaker 3: 7:46

So Echo's Airsoft's best kept secret. Echo is the team that you never heard of, or if you've been around, you have what Echo is is. It's an acronym, so it stands for elite contract operators. When I founded the team, it was a different climate. Airsoft was at a different time and you couldn't just slap together a team. There's teams today that are. You know, they weren't here yesterday. They're team tomorrow. They're gone the next day. Patches are all weird and they're goofy looking and whatever. They wanted everything to matter. So I took into account you know the name, what it means and what we wanted to embody.

Speaker 3: 8:24

And it was at a time where getting gear, getting guns, it was very different. It was a different time. You couldn't just go to five different stores in the city and find stuff. You had to go to key locations that looked shady at best. They had paper over the windows. You didn't know if you're going to get mugged or buy an Airsoft game gun that day. You know they were. They were pretty rough and tumble. Guys couldn't get always the same gear. Guys couldn't get always the same stuff.

Speaker 3: 8:51

So I wanted us to portray contractors, for a few reasons. One, our team were a bunch of serious badasses back then. I mean serious, we were the original Wagner and two because the inconsistency in gear. I didn't want it to matter if, like at one point, I ran a Mad Max shoddy. The guy behind me had an AK. You know, alex had a sledgehammer and a breaching shield. Like we were, we were to be feared, not not renowned, because we were all in you know NATO standard or something like that. So it was half out of necessity and half out of just lust for the joy of just rolling people.

Speaker 3: 9:33

So what we are is represented in our patch. The shape of our patch matters. The shape of any military uniform patch actually means what division they're in For us. The symbol on our patch, the sound waves, the sonic waves you see, each of them actually represent the discipline to become the pearl that's at the center of our patch and that is perfection. That is the discipline in short, mid and long range weaponry. We were founded in CQB. That was our roots. We dominated that scene for well over a decade. Now we've only got better at that and better at everything else too. Echo is evolving, echo is changing, echo is, echo is a lot of things. So what we are is it's pretty fluid, but at its core savages. That's, that's it.

Speaker 1: 10:21

Savages at heart. On that note, did you go through a bunch of members in the past? Are you set at the same group of guys started in 2006, 2008, whenever it was, or I know you've picked up guys along the way? Or have you gotten rid of any guys Like? What's the background behind Echo on that end?

Speaker 3: 10:43

We got rid of lots. We so, within, along our journeys, we faced a problem that plagues a lot of teams. We had some cheaters and it's tough. It's tough to say it, it's hard to admit it, but it's also important and it's mature and it's responsible for teams to admit it. It took me a while because it's like, okay, you're calling this guy out but I don't see it. And it wasn't that like I don't see it because I don't want to see it, it's just that I never saw it like, show me something. I saw it.

Speaker 3: 11:16

We overnight cut the team by half. Now I'll apologize to a lot of guys that got caught up in that, because 99% of them weren't in fact cheaters, they were just they weren't up to par, so I cut them at the same time too. So we dropped from like a 30 man team to five or six overnight, and part of it was you know, max will remember this If you couldn't draw and shoot your pistol in Ipsick standard time with Ipsick standard accuracy, you're not for us. That was the minimum. If you couldn't engage at long distance with sniper level of precision, you're not for us. So we had a quick skills competition and it's like if you're not part of the half of the 1%. You're not us and we booted them all of them one shot.

Speaker 1: 12:01

Nice. So in the early times of Echo, what was your basic staple field Like? Did you guys have a specific spot? Because back then I would imagine there's I don't want to say fewer fields, because there's probably fewer fields now a day because of C20, all that garbage going on in the climate but did all this training and everything together where you kind of became a solid unit.

Speaker 3: 12:27

We did that at a lot of places, but I think the biggest forging of the team was done at CQB indoors, cqb Toronto. We were one of the first teams that was, you know, widely sponsored on many, many fronts. So we would play for them for a couple of years. Then, you know, some flash in the pan team would start up and they go oh, these guys got more clout than you guys, it's okay. Whatever, they'd take them on and we'd wait till they evaporated and we moved through them. So we played a lot at CQB indoor. We helped develop CQB outdoor and then played there. We played at Defcon indoor. We helped bring Airsoft.

Speaker 3: 13:03

Really, airsoft was almost non-existent on a weekly basis in the city. We pioneered that. I mean, that's the reality. If you don't believe it, fuck you, but that's the reality. You could find Airsoft every couple of months. We had it running every week and then what happened is some of the organizations we were working with they started hosting every week. So then it went to now you can find three games a week in Toronto, which is a whole different story. But yeah, so we were founded out of the core of Toronto and we bounced around almost every major field in Toronto just under. Who was willing to sponsor us?

Speaker 1: 13:42

Nice. So you guys floated around you start becoming a core group of teammates or training together. Everything's going good. Back then was there a set kind of game host that did run big games, or was it just you guys kind of getting together and saying, hey, it's an attack and defend type situation, or how was it back then?

Speaker 3: 14:06

So there were big games. There was a couple of hosts running bigger games. Wolfpack had a bigger game, force Recon had some games, ghost had, and then, as far as Echo, we ran weekly games and the formula was simple. It was we didn't play any bullshit games. There was no weird relay races, do five backflips, none of this shit. It's force on force games. And the rules were simple Everybody that showed up, as many, wanted to show up versus Echo. It might have been 70 on six, sometimes, wow, might have been 50 on six, but we fought everyone and all of them every time, and this went on for probably close to a decade.

Speaker 1: 14:49

Holy cow. So as a newer player On the team, Kyle, was it nerve wracking to approach the team Like was it something that was natural for you? Like, how did it all come across to where you, as kind of a newer ish airsoft player, join a team like Echo?

Speaker 4: 15:10

Well. So it was made pretty clear at the start I'm not on the team until I earned my spot, and I understand that and that was fair. I understood that it was going to take a commitment and I mean it was. It was not a short process. I did it in a sort of quick manner because we were playing a lot and I was. I was there the whole time, but it was still, I think, for me, nearly five months of like every other weekend I was there for either just the day or the whole weekend, whatever it was.

Speaker 4: 15:42

And what really pushed mine forward specifically was deadfall. I know we'll touch on this later, but Mike was pretty much the only one on the team that went to deadfall before that and his brother actually had said if you go, like talking to me, he was like if you go, I'll go, because he didn't want to go. I was like I'll do it, I want to go, and JP, I was JP's prospect, so because I'm going now, jp has to go. And then at that point everyone else was like I guess we're all going. So for me it was.

Speaker 4: 16:15

It was definitely intimidating. I didn't know a lot of the history until I started hanging around more. But it was clear that they were all serious and it was clear that they, all you know, took care of each other. And for me, I was entering the sport with no, no friends. I was supposed to, but they all, you know, people flake. Uh, to find a group that wanted to go as often as I did, it was important and it has turned out pretty well for me in the long run. I think. So it was worth it for sure.

Speaker 1: 16:46

So, as a brand new player joining, they made it easy for you to get yourself in the groove with them, or were they a bit standoffish? Or, you know, there was definitely a bit of a standoffish nature from from some of them, but not not standoffish and like they were dicks.

Speaker 4: 17:01

To me it was. You know, you have to earn your spot here, so I had to make sure I was. You know, when I was following JP, that was when he moves, I move. When he shoots, then I can shoot. And it wasn't. It wasn't clear that that was the way it was supposed to be. That's just the way that I realized it should be, because I had bought an AEG off of him. He was running his suppressed HPA, uh, mtw, I'm going to give myself away. I'm going to give him away If I shoot first.

Speaker 4: 17:32

I realized very quickly that if I, you know, let him take the lead and I watch and I learn, then I'm going to move a lot of the time. And so I think that you know, as a new player, that's important you watch who's, or like who shows that they know what they're doing, not even just who talks the loudest, but who shows that they can do what they say they can do. That's where you're going to go further. And so it's not that they made it easy for me. It was just I have to shadow them and I have to learn from them. I can't be like oh well, I know how to run around the woods and point a gun at people. I have to watch and see how they're doing. I have to see how they're doing and why they're doing it. So it's just, it's just about whether you're not your receptive learner Right and?

Speaker 1: 18:12

and just to go back, so you said that you were JP's prospect. So on echo, basically a member can put up somebody to bring in. Is that how it works, yeah?

Speaker 3: 18:30

So echo is a pretty firm dictatorship, but it's also got another element to it that you know it's like. You want to be the leader. Take me down, it's all yours. You got to take me down first. You get a seat at the table when you have your patch. Until you have your patch, your voice means nothing on the team. You be quiet and learn. Try to pick up the team, try to pick up the trade, try to get better at what you can do, but that's it. That's not your time for voicing your opinion. It's your time to learn.

Speaker 3: 19:11

Once you have your patch, then you have the right to vote. Once you have your patch, you can also bring in a prospect you're responsible for. So you vouch for them. They spend their. On average, it's a minimum of one year. There have been members that, like Kyle, who've been brought in before. There's been members that have taken seven years to get their patch. It takes as long as it takes to earn it, and until you get that patch, you don't get a vote, you don't get a say and you don't have a seat.

Speaker 1: 19:42

Is there a? So you say so obviously you're, you're in command. It's, it's your way of the highway, correct? Is there a second in command?

Speaker 3: 19:52

Yes and no. So the thing is, this is all. Echo members are equal in terms of they get their vote. I use their vote to determine. You know, I'm the judge, they're the jury. Let's put it that way. The reason why is that everybody needs to be heard because, you know, only a fool doesn't listen to expertise around them. I evaluate that, but ultimately it's easier and more seamless if we have one person pulling the trigger on it, because then there's no back and forth. So I evaluate all of the information inputted and I give a yay or nay, and that's the direction we go. My leaders in the team are silent. They don't need to be announced. Basically, max will step up and usually take that role, or JP will step up and usually take that role. What they say is just uniformly respected because they put the time in Max.

Speaker 1: 20:45

What's your, your kind of thoughts on bringing new people into echo and how it worked kind of in your eyes when you guys were forming the team? It's a great question.

Speaker 2: 20:58

So at one point our team was pretty large and basically the problem we also ran into is that when it's a democracy, the team can get split up in terms of, like, what people want to do. So that's kind of one of the reasons why our team kind of is a dictatorship, but it actually ends up working better because you don't have to spend as much time discussing different options. Basically, mike will say hey guys, let's go to this game, what do you guys think? And then either people are in or they're not, and that system works very well and overall I think that's that's one thing that other teams should possibly consider is actually just electing somebody to be a team leader. Like our fellow team, cal, they have Davis their leader and he's a great guy. He has good judgment and overall his guys trust him a lot and I think again, because of that, they're able to get a lot more things done and they're able to organize themselves a lot faster and better.

Speaker 2: 21:52

True, and yeah, as Mike touched on, like JPMI, like there are a few guys on our team that have been around since the beginning. They're not always around, but basically when they come out, you know what they're doing and it's, it's, it's evident, like we don't have to pull rank on people. We just we make the suggestion in the moment. People know it's the right call and we go and do it. What happens for you guys?

Speaker 1: 22:15

Because I know team Cal if, if Dave is not going to an event, none of them go. So for you guys is that kind of the same rule. Or if you have three guys that want to go to an event, do the three of you go or do you only go when you have? You know, fire team status.

Speaker 2: 22:37

So, if I can touch on that, actually like basically part of the lower of our team in a way, because we're the lead contract operators, we do, like our history is working as a team but having individuals spread out doing like, doing the same objective, but on our own, and we've kind of became more of a cohesive team over time. But because our kind of meta strategy is that, like, the team has gone everywhere from, like, one of us going to an event. There was a time where it was literally just me and Mike for a year going to events and we did actually really well, just the two of us. But I think now we have a better system where people, everyone basically volunteers to go to games. We don't really push people to like, we don't force people to go to games and I think actually that causes that better attendance. So we don't really we don't really worry about that. Like, anytime people want to go to a game, they suggest it and usually people want to go. Yeah, that's true, it's a good way to look at it.

Speaker 1: 23:35

For sure, the way I kind of see you guys and I could be way, way way off pace is you're basically you're like a special forces unit, so you attach yourself to kind of another squad ish if you're small numbers and you kind of do what you guys need to do at your own pace but assisting that end of that game. I've kind of noticed, like I'm going to think about that, I'm going to throw out deadfall because honestly, I know, max, you couldn't make that game but without your guys there there would have been six life fighters versus everybody else. So that's a perfect example is you guys came on, you know you joined on with a smaller number of people and you got shit done, which is seems to be, you know, the MO for Echo in my eyes as another player in Ontario Airsoft.

Speaker 3: 24:32

Yeah, I think that we're a force multiplier for sure. There's what this is why I say we're Ontario Airsoft's best kept secret, because, you know, in the past you've had podcasts here, you've had you've had Calon and Incon, and they're talking about these things that they've accomplished in these, these great moments there's. I can't think of any of those moments where Echo wasn't there. I know, for a lot of them Echo was there. Yeah, like you know, when you hear, well, the first ever recce team to get squad of the battle, I know I have the patch right when it's while we went down to the States and, you know, assassinated the mayor and blamed it on Jet Desert Fox and Swamp Sniper, I know I took the shot right. There's a lot of things there's.

Speaker 3: 25:20

We've accomplished more that nobody knows about and it's bittersweet. I like it. I like the fact that nobody knows it because it feeds into this sort of mystique around our team. At the same time, it's always irksome when I see somebody else that you know we'll wipe. A team will all be laying there. This team will charge through a bunch of dead bodies and go claim their squad of the battle. They're like look at this objective we accomplished. Yeah, I don't. We don't blow cover, though, right, and we don't work for those things. We work for a different level, but yes, we are. We are contractors. That's our, our origins, right or origins. We have no problem attaching ourselves to a unit. I remember the first deadfall. You and I played together, mike. We were raiding that small building and, oh yeah, he yells to me how many echo are with you? I go, just me and somebody else that goes, only one. My response is how many do you need? One is a lot.

Speaker 1: 26:17

We fucked that building up and that attack.

Speaker 3: 26:19

That's for sure I blew that door off its hinges.

Speaker 1: 26:23

That was at the end of deadfall 2021. Something like that 21 before this big fucking, whatever happened with the world there for a couple years. Great advice, I love to hear it. You guys as a team to give some advice to newer players, not necessarily newer players that are new to the sport, but players that have been played, played for a while and are thinking about joining a team. Like what advice do you have for those players that kind of want to get into more of a serious milsom team? Uniformed role.

Speaker 3: 27:09

I'll start with this one. My advice is simple Make sure you're ready. If you're not ready for a competitive team, if you're not ready to join a serious organization, don't do it, because you're not just a detriment to yourself, you're a detriment to that team. Not only that, if you're a newer player let's say you're a rookie, you've been playing for eight years or something like that you have one mouth and two ears. That should be your ratio of information transfer.

Speaker 3: 27:44

Just listen, listen twice as much as you talk To me. It's irksome, it's a bit gut wrenching when I show up and there's these guys that are all badass and we've been around for two years now. Like buddy, you are greener than fresh cut grass. You don't know shit. You could get yourself hurt. You're likely not going to be around in six months. It's worth it to just pay your respects, listen and learn and see what's going on around you and just approach it with that respect, approach it with that calmness. Find the team that resounds with you, that follows the same interests you have, that you can relate to and give it your all. Be part of that team, be present for that team.

Speaker 1: 28:35

That's really good advice. Max, do you have anything to add for advice for newer teams?

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah, I think, like touching on what Mike said, I think if you want to go out to like a milson event, you've got to be prepared in terms of your kit, You've got to be physically prepared and you've got to be mentally prepared and I think if most players are missing one of those three things, you can usually go without the kid, which Mike has proven. If you've seen him go up to Deadpool, it's like a little little fanny pack with like four MP5 mags and a granola bar to Deadpool. He can do that. But I don't recommend it.

Speaker 2: 29:12

But, in terms of teams, spend a lot of time together, help each other out, be honest with each other and try and volunteer to like go and do things together. So, even if it's just like go out on like a night hike, if you guys have nods, go up for a hike or go out for a beer together, just like you know bonding with each other. And if someone can't play because they have some financial issues, sometimes you guys can band together and you know pick them up or pay for their admission, whatever. But it goes a long way, Like there were times where I didn't have a car. Jp was driving me everywhere. He's driving me to depot. He's driving me to airsoft games, and then there was times where he didn't have money and I was helping him. So basically, help each other and spend time together.

Speaker 1: 29:57

That's really good advice and that goes a long way, especially with our team, because you know, times are definitely tough, especially for dudes that are in the construction industry, that are seasonal. Is there sitting at home on Pogie right now? I'm not making that money and like you talk about games, like you know, february 1st is coming up. That's a nightfall or the force week. On nightfall You're going to add $125 per person that has to be paid that day, right? So not necessarily everybody will have that money. So it's good to have a team to band together and kind of support each other in a sport that they love. And I'm going to say sport, not hobby, because we're trying to make this a sport. It's a legitimate sport. It's a legitimate sport, like, not according to any liberal or any sort of actual stand, but in our minds it's a liberal or it's a sport right now.

Speaker 4: 30:51

That's for sure. Endurance sport right, Especially in the milsim community.

Speaker 2: 30:54

Let's be honest liberals are not really the authority on sports.

Speaker 1: 30:58

They're not the authority on anything. These days, it seems like. Yeah we're not going to get into politics because I could talk all fucking night. This is a good, this is a good precursor. So you've got the information from team echo on kind of how to approach joining a team. So how does somebody join your team directly?

Speaker 3: 31:21

Well, that's a good question. We have to see substance is really what it is and not alcoholism.

Speaker 3: 31:28

No, no, that is an assumed Not substance abuse. Yeah, not substance abuse. We need to see substance and substance. For us it's actually much more similar to like what they look for in an AV seal. They're not looking for necessarily the strongest guy, the most athletic guy. We're looking for somebody that that you know isn't have an insane IQ. We're looking for somebody that is morally sound. We're looking for a brother in arms, and a lot of that comes down to how you become a member. So the final step to becoming a member ties in with how you begin as a member, and that is basically you have to get voted. If 100% of the vote doesn't say yes, you don't get patched ever, or do you have a chance to be voted again?

Speaker 3: 32:19

You don't get patched until you earn everybody's yes. So if one brother doesn't feel like you have their back, then you have none of our backs.

Speaker 1: 32:29

Makes sense.

Speaker 3: 32:30

So that's what we're looking for. We're looking for that type of moral fiber and personality and dedication in a member. And I'll tell you, I think that there's something to it. I would hate, you know. I would argue we're doing it right if we have members that have been around for 18 years.

Speaker 1: 32:47

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Agree with that. What about your training like regime? Is it something that you guys do regularly, like, how do you go about? And I'm not saying you're commanding an event in any way, you've just signed up as a squad echo. You're going to play an event, doesn't matter which one. What is the precursor to that event for Team Echo?

Speaker 3: 33:15

So that's going to depend we have at times we have week after week of training. At times we've had whole winters where every two weeks, every week, we train in a certain aspect. We're at a place now where we don't need to do that. Operators are encouraged to train on their own. But we're sharp enough that we don't necessarily require any training. Everybody could use training. Training is always good and always relevant, but there's no necessity for it. If we have a larger event, we will simulate certain scenarios and train for that, often with our sister and brother teams. Usually it's going to be with light fighters or with Cal and we'll simulate vehicle assaults. But it wasn't that long ago we were running wave after wave of drone drop munition training, so learning how to drop on vehicles from drones. We do various training like that, but it's as required In a lot of ways.

Speaker 3: 34:18

I listened to the last couple podcasts, particularly the Inc guys, only because they're organization and it's like holy shit, these guys put in so much more work than us. This is ridiculous. We are the original Wagnerites. You get shot in the field. We're like change radio stations on. You like see a fucker? No, it's not that bad, but we're pretty brutal. We're harsh when we need to be harsh and we get everybody up to speed. Once they're up to speed, it's on them to keep that. So the answer is yes and no. Often we do train. Often we train very, very hard and continuously. At other times we take advantage of not requiring it and we use that time to stop training, which gives our members a chance to clear up the affordability aspect. They can just sort of keep their heads down, save their money, gear up, work on themselves, work on their loadouts.

Speaker 1: 35:18

So, that being said, we've primarily played airsoft at PRZ, so everybody in this room knows every fucking end. The guy on the phone knows every fucking angle at that field inside and out. So now, with everything moving to the compound and some other outdoor events, is that some sort of precursor for you guys to maybe start doing some sort of different training now that the AO is completely different in that sense? Or is it something that you've done so much work together that you could just mesh at any AO and it is what it is? What you guys know, just kind of clicks in what?

Speaker 3: 36:03

do you think, Kyle?

Speaker 4: 36:04

Yeah, I was going to say we did do a lot of outdoor training and we still do. So I think that moving it outdoors doesn't really change anything for us. And even when we were at PRZ we did spend a lot of times on the perimeter in the tree line. You know, it doesn't matter if we're in or outside sorry, indoors or out, it's all the same. We work together, the same.

Speaker 1: 36:27

Yeah, everything kind of meshes together so you basically train from you know your basic weapons, handling up to bounding and everything just kind of correlates.

Speaker 3: 36:37

There's a few guys out there that you see this weird energy when they click together. Max and I are one of those pairs and it really doesn't matter, we'll be outside doing our thing, you know, smashing guys at distance, whipping grenades, doing all that jazz. And then when we get inside it gets kind of spooky because Max and I get this weird energy where it's like we don't need to talk anymore, we just start doing the same thing and it becomes an eerie clockwork. So our atmosphere doesn't matter In terms of you know, would we change our training regime? I could see definitely some value in training there to map the field a bit better. I could see some training there to work with trench systems a bit better. And then, of course, you know, at the end of the day, just like battle, it's all economics, so the field is a lot closer. It's a more achievable and more realistic to train there more often. So we'll likely leverage that and take advantage of that.

Speaker 1: 37:42

What's your thoughts, max, on training and prepping for bigger events in different AOs?

Speaker 2: 37:48

I think there's a lot of value in that. I mean, even just on the basic level of showing up, setting up your site and then gearing up and doing a check on your guys to make sure your guys are geared out properly. Even just doing a trial run of just that is like worth it because you know, sometimes people don't have the correct gear, especially sometimes new guys. But in terms of like training in different AOs, like you learn something from everywhere you go and like Pierre's using an excellent example, because it's such a mix of like urban and also like forest fighting, so you really have to practice like a lot of different maneuvers and you have to learn how to navigate all the terrain differently as a team.

Speaker 2: 38:34

So it's very useful to do that.

Speaker 1: 38:36

For sure, like for me, I am a firm believer in training, especially right now, my team is focusing on more of a vehicle training role. Just because of the compound is opening up a huge amount of opportunities for more vehicle related stuff. So that's what we're focusing on mainly, but yeah, it's just definitely something that I would suggest doing as a team if you're trying to get into that team setting. So, on that kind of point, is there a specific type of game host that you guys rotate to? Is there a game host and I don't mean name them, I mean, is there a game host that you, or games game style that you completely avoid as a team because you're just it's just not for you? Or do you play every in any game that you possibly can make out if you get the numbers to go to?

Speaker 3: 39:30

Well, I think for most part, we're not interested in something that's arbitrary. So hyper unrealistic type events really have no interest to us. They're fun, we will attend them out of joy, but it's not what we want to do as air softers. We want to play milsim events. Do I like games where it's like a SWAT type scenario, where it's like, okay, you have 30 seconds to come up with a battle plan that's realistic and breach this unknown area which you've got a flash of the map and you're, you know whatever, taking out some, some terrorists or bullshit bank robbers or who cares, right? No, I don't like those events.

Speaker 3: 40:17

Typically, you will not see Echo at them. You will never see us at a speedball event ever, or speed QB I don't even know what the hell they call that shit. We don't wear jerseys, we don't. We don't play paintball anymore, because if we wanted to, we'd still be doing it. We're playing a different sports. We handle it that way. We gravitate towards milsim events. I think that that's kind of the biggest prerequisite. We're open to new hosts. We're open to playing at various AOs. We've played everywhere, from, you know, ottawa to Sudbury to Mississippi, right, but it's more. We want games of quality, games that aren't going to waste our time and games that have value to them.

Speaker 1: 40:57

Good answer. Any of you guys want to touch on that question? No, I think.

Speaker 4: 41:00

I'd actually agree with that. I feel very similarly.

Speaker 1: 41:05

Okay, this year, sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 41:09

Oh, sorry, I was just going to touch on it. So I've actually been hosting games for a very long time. The one advice I can give to hosts is simplify your rules. I think the more complex the rules get, the less people are going to read them, the less they're going to remember them. All of the best games that I've been to, including ones that I've run for other people, have been with super simple rules. For example, mike and I went to a game called Stronghold, which was at the college, which just doesn't exist anymore, but rules were very simple. One team was defending the complex for 24 hours, the other team had to capture the complex in 24 hours and, in terms of the actual game rules, there was non-ambulatory rules for when you get hit and that's basically it. And the simpler the rules get, the much easier the game flows and the more creativity there is allowed on the field.

Speaker 2: 42:06

I agree 100%, so any games that have a lot of point systems or just things that are really arbitrary. That's not interesting, and also most of the players on the field are not going to ever get to understand how many points your team has or what to do with it. So simpler the better, in my opinion.

Speaker 4: 42:25

So any game.

Speaker 2: 42:25

If I read the rules and they're too convoluted, I'm not interested to go.

Speaker 4: 42:30

I find the points seem to become just random numbers at the end of the game. It doesn't necessarily show any reflection on how the game really went sometimes.

Speaker 1: 42:40

I want to know and you know what, I'm very good friends with almost every game host in Ontario how do you calculate your fucking point system, like, how do you truly keep track of what's going on and counting points For me? I've never understood, and I'm not calling anyone out specifically, but do you just randomly come up with a fucking number at the end of the game? Must be Because there's some fucking games where there is no fucking way in hell that those points are accurate, because rarely like I mean not rarely, but the guys sitting in this room and on the phone we usually play events till the end of the event. So we're on the field seeing everything that's going on. So even if there's an excuse of, oh, at the night this faction didn't do as well, it's like bullshit.

Speaker 1: 43:36

We were at every fucking flag throughout, throughout the entire night. So how did these points? How are they calculated? So I think honestly, they just need to be eliminated in Ontario airsoft. There shouldn't be a point tabulation in any way, shape or form, cause all that does is the next fucking day, it opens up your social media for nothing but complaints and the useful banter that doesn't put our community any farther ahead in game host and gameplay, which is what we're trying to achieve. It's like going fucking backwards.

Speaker 2: 44:16

I think you hit the nail on the head because you know we're the type of people where we go to an event, we stay for the whole event, we work hard, the whole event and you know, if the score doesn't reflect like what happened in the game, it's kind of like you're disrespecting our effort in a way.

Speaker 2: 44:34

That's the play making up a score, like we all know who won the game. Let's be real. Yeah, it's. Half the other team went home. They went home because they were demoralized, which is a result of our efforts, and Also they're not able to succeed in their goals, which again is a result of our effort.

Speaker 2: 44:52

Yeah, you can't Make up random scores, which is again why I prefer games where there's an end state that's clear to all the players, like, for example, if if there was a milson game where there was a lot of objectives on the field but the meta objective was that when you capture the other, the other teams base flag, the game is done. That makes a lot of sense to me. It kind of sets the framework for the priority of the both teams for what they should be doing.

Speaker 1: 45:19

Yeah, 100%. I think what's happening and I'm not gonna put any, any fucking words in anybody's head, but I think what's happening is game hosts are trying to keep their games Point-wise and I'm air quoting right now really close, because then it doesn't show that that was a blowout, but really I can probably. I think I played 17 events last year with life fighters and 15 of them were a fucking blowout. I'll tell you that right now. And the game should have fucking ended at like one in that or one in the morning, after Everything was done. We completed the missions, we beat them down, we have a fucking Align that can't be broken and now the other teams just walking off the field.

Speaker 1: 46:09

At that point the game is done. And I know, like you may. You may have mentioned this earlier in a different episode or maybe even this one, but I'm agreeing with you don't continue a fucking game that Doesn't have any right to continue because you think that you're saving face in the community, because all you're doing is you're fucking pissing off the guys that, like max said, busted their fucking ass the entire event as far as it they could and fought the entire time. Yes, it could be one-sided, but the other team should have pivoted to try to fight that one-sidedness if they can.

Speaker 3: 46:51

If you understand what I'm saying, I'll use one of my favorites Red Road was a good event. Yep, I had a blast. Yeah, fantastic event the bridge. I'm host didn't really. I think that was the first gamer, or newer to it anyways.

Speaker 1: 47:05

He did some smaller games, I guess at their home field In Fuck what's my clarinets field? Padua, fuck, sorry so.

Speaker 3: 47:17

I'll start by acknowledging the fact that I'm completely fucking ignorant to this guy. Okay, other than he's a nice guy, that's. That's about the extent I know of battle dwarf, yeah we're talking about it.

Speaker 3: 47:27

Yeah, so very nice guy, well spoken, very Well Intentioned and well thought out, overly complex, but very well thought out and well intentioned. Guy and game. The game was over. We kicked the living shit out of them. Oh yeah, period, you know it's. It's very hard to stomach when it's like, well, you killed them all, drove them from the land, hung their leader it was a close one, though. It was a nail biter like no, you're all fucking dead, oh, more than dead, exactly now, if you want it. But but what's wrong with that? Nothing. And what's wrong if you're on the other side? There is no shame in losing Honorably, not at all, in fact. You could still have a great fucking time. And, and the host at that point was like, okay, yeah, they all died and like, you killed their CP and they're all like driven from the land.

Speaker 3: 48:20

But the fight continues with who, yeah, with who, and, and they wanted to make this. Well, okay, let's just move down into the central area and start shooting at each other. That's fine, let's do it. We'll call it a different thing. Now we're playing a different game. Yeah, you want to give us a two for one special now, red road is over. Now we're playing fuck around in the bridge. Yeah, but it is what it is. It is an event. There's a, there was a beginning, there wasn't middle and there sure as shit was an end.

Speaker 1: 48:47

Oh, yeah, and it ended.

Speaker 3: 48:48

Yeah, you can't revive the thing right, and I think that that's something that hosts are scared of. But don't be, I Did not pay you by the hour for the event. Yeah, I paid you for a game that runs up to XYZ, and If you're gonna complain that well, it ended an hour early, well, don't let it out an hour at least. Sit in your fucking car the whole 24. I don't care, yeah, but the story is over. You know you don't go to the theater and say, well, the movie is over, play it again. It's over, it's done.

Speaker 1: 49:17

That's a you know what. That's an awesome point. And I think game hosts should start saying the game can go up to 18 hours, up to 16 hours, up to 24 hours. Because there's been fucking games on some smaller game hosts where I Took my team, which was a little more Developed as a team, I'm gonna say for an event of that caliber, and the event was over by five o'clock. Yep, right, there was people. They didn't want to fight us anymore. They just they couldn't get a stand. The game was over At that point. Yeah, it's a little too early, but the saltiness level was so bad that there's not even a point to continue the game after that, because nobody was really participating or following anything, because they were just so salty.

Speaker 3: 50:11

So at that point, send the fucking game you know what I mean, 100% to you hosts that run these events. You know what it looks like when you don't end the game. It looks like if the referee never gets involved in a knockout in UFC and you just keep fucking slugging him and he's out in. His mouth is open. Just just keep filling him. That's what it looks like to everybody around you. It's a. It's unsafe, eological and it's not respecting both sides. You can lose with honor and still be able to go wow, that was fucking awesome. You guys kick the shit out of us. Good game, we'll see at the next one. And it's cool. That's what airsoft is. There will always be a winner and a loser. There's no participation medals here.

Speaker 4: 50:52

Well, let's see, that's another thing I wanted to say, was the sportsmanship to me. Oh sorry, max, are you trying to say something?

Speaker 2: 50:58

Oh sorry, sorry brother.

Speaker 4: 51:00

Go ahead. Okay, I was just gonna say the when I'm out there. If I've, you know, maybe someone's disagreed with me hitting them first or whatever. Okay, it's a game, I'll take the trade. I don't care, because we're here to play a game. If I get upset at you and it ruins my day Now I'm ruining someone else's day and it just spirals. We can have fun at these games and take the. You know it's. It's still a game. If there is a Disagreement, it's because it's not accurate. It's not real life. You can't tell who shot who first, because we're it's, it's BB's. So just walk it off and it will all have a better game. Some of these games end so early and so salty because people forget about that, and I think that if we want to be considered a sport, we need to be pushing the sportsmanship further and.

Speaker 4: 51:44

I don't think it's.

Speaker 1: 51:44

It's said often enough at the games For sure, and max, you have something to touch on yeah, I just.

Speaker 2: 51:50

I just wanted to comment like so Mike and I have gone out to a lot of games like this was years ago. To be fair, where we played is like all four, but there'd be like 40 of us against like 200 people and and very commonly, the host of the game would have to start changing the rules to give the Other teams an advantage against us.

Speaker 4: 52:10

Oh, I fucking.

Speaker 2: 52:13

It's flattering on one side, but it's also like what the moves kind of got to let the game play out the way it is. You know, like if 200 you can't beat 40 guys. Maybe you need to regroup and figure out what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 52:24

Yeah, send all 200, one attack.

Speaker 2: 52:27

Yeah, do whatever you gotta do, like it's possible, but it does. It does frustrate, like us, when people have to change the rules.

Speaker 1: 52:34

Yeah, you should never like. That's a really good advice for game hosts that I really hope are listening, do you not?

Speaker 2: 52:42

Yeah, do not change your fucking rules.

Speaker 2: 52:46

If you're hosting a milsim event you're not hosting like a 4 pm Birthday party, like Let it play out, and when you see that the other team has lost the game, call it a game, and you guys can also regroup everyone, say, hey, do you guys want to keep playing? We can do something different. Like Mike touch on, yeah. Like I Definitely think there's a big gap in them in the scenario world right now with like running smaller milsim, so making like maybe a 12 or 18 hour event, but there's like smaller missions, yeah, and maybe each team sends out groups to do different missions throughout the night that have like a finite end point. So maybe like a two hour mission to do one thing, another two hour mission to do another thing, something like that. And like you could also integrate that after a longer event that's ended early.

Speaker 1: 53:34

You have many missions for sure you could have Night asset squads. Go up against just night asset squads if the game ends early. And then the those guys still want to go at it. Go at it. You know what I mean. Now, there's no bitching. You both have equal fucking assets. It all comes down to who gets their gun off first and better, and that's it Exactly. And to rewind a bit fuck, I lost my thought. Oh, when you're on the losing side of a fucking game and and Say you get trounced from the other side, you're on the losing side. Learn from that. Learn from how your squad did what you did good, what you did poorly, what other squads did poorly, and adjust your gameplay the next time going around. Don't be salty on a loss. Say good, because it's a fucking learning experience.

Speaker 4: 54:31

Yeah, work harder next time.

Speaker 1: 54:33

Work harder, do something different, move somewhere else to attack somebody. You know what didn't work. So now focus on getting yourself and the squads around you better to achieve the W next time, because either way it's a win, no matter what. You come out of that situation learning and, just like Jaco Wilbrink, says good, something fucking goes wrong. Good, it went wrong for a reason. It went wrong because you need to learn how to not let it go wrong the next time. So don't be fucking salty.

Speaker 3: 55:09

And you know what? There's a lot of excuse making too. It plays into it and a lot of fucking pussies. I'll give you an example. A few years ago we played one of the risk games I don't know which one it was. We didn't have night vision at the time and the other team did. So all these pussies out there going, oh, but they can see in the dark. And it's like okay, but I can't, like who gives a flying fuck? That's like the-. It does not change my objective.

Speaker 1: 55:35

Everybody uses that excuse, man.

Speaker 3: 55:37

Could you imagine somebody on the front line going? Well, I'm gonna go sit in my car because it's fucking dark out here. I'm sorry, you didn't bring your fucking Prius right. So what did we do? We went and sat on a wall and you know what we did? We fucking stomped these nods as they rolled in Under white light. Do you know why? Because it's all we could do. We didn't achieve anything, but you know what we did. We survived. We held the point and we mowed them, the mother fuck down, wave after wave. We were outnumbered.

Speaker 3: 56:08

We had no night assets, but we had dollar store flashlights, big fuckers that JP bought. I think he bought nine of them and we duct taped them to this thing facing in all directions. And that's all we had and that's all it took. Now is flashlights gonna win the war against night vision? Sorry, new players, auto-gating, it ain't gonna save you. You know what it did. It allowed us to see a little bit, and that's all we needed.

Speaker 3: 56:32

We could not accomplish anything, but we did far better than saying well, they have something, I don't have, so I'm going home. I'm sorry, boys and girls, I often have something you don't have. It's not an excuse. No, that is, you have failed yourself, you failed the community, you failed your team, your organization, whatever you've shown up for. Right? If it's dark out, that doesn't mean go camping. This is not a camping trip, this is an act of war zone, right? You know, if we look at any real world engagement just to tie this into it, you know we'll pick anyone you want. I don't care Iraq. The Iraqi National Guard didn't go home at night. No Right, they stayed in their fucking posts.

Speaker 1: 57:12

They didn't do so well, but they stayed in their posts, and to that point too, like at the compound, if you don't have night assets, go to the trailer park, go to the town, go to the fucking gas station, because there's street lights everywhere. If you're worried about that, stay out of the fucking woods and fight along the fucking roads. There's bunkers set all along the road. For that reason, like, that field is designed as a field where you don't have to have night assets, sure, it's gonna help you navigate through the woods. Thermals are gonna fucking definitely help you on dark days, but you have areas to get around these guys, because those guys are gonna stick to the woods, because if not, you're gonna see them in town creeping because the lights are on. So there's always that option. Don't let that become an excuse. And that kind of goes into our next point here. What would you guys like to see changed? Moving forward in Ontario Airsoft?

Speaker 4: 58:14

I wanna see people stay to the end of the event.

Speaker 1: 58:16

For sure.

Speaker 4: 58:17

Like everybody, it would be nice if very few people left as soon as the game started, like there's so many times we see night rolls around and people go to sleep for the whole night or they leave right at night and I get some people. They've got their responsibilities, but you're really taking up a ticket for someone who could have stayed the whole event 100%. That's gotta be the biggest thing. I would like to see change.

Speaker 1: 58:39

And I think more people will go the distance if these game hosts announce it can go up till 16 hours, 100%. Because now, as a ticket fucking buyer, in the back of my head it's like, fuck bro, like because I've played Deadfall series, we could get wiped out an hour into the fucking game, especially me as a commander. If I die, the game's done. Like, they take me the game's over, it's done Right, that could happen. So in the back of my mind I am going to fight as hard as I fucking can because this game could end at 8 pm. The other team could get wiped out. So I think, even just by changing that little bit, like for Light Fighter Milson Productions, none of our games go past 2 am. That's the cutoff You're gonna get your best bang for your buck. Your night guys are gonna be able to fight for, you know, six, seven hours at night, still right, five, whatever hours at night, depending on when the game is, but everybody will stay on the field for the entire event if it ends at 2 am, yeah, Right.

Speaker 3: 59:48

Yeah, you know, a lot of that starts with vetting these players. Yeah, you know. You gotta ask yourself too is some of these players, when they show up and do these things, they never planned on playing through the night? They never, like you didn't bring your fucking RV and set out your awning and pull out the kiddie pool?

Speaker 1: 1:00:07

Is that a shot at me, motherfucker?

Speaker 3: 1:00:10

No, but you see these guys. You did not spend four hours tending to that rack of ribs and getting that pig on that roast there to play the whole fucking night because somebody's gonna turn that thing right. So I think vetting is one thing I'd love to see in the community anymore. You know, back in the day to get age verified on ASC you had to meet somebody, you had to sit at a table with them and they had to talk to you, take your ID, write it down, be like hey, is this person a fucking psycho? You know we need people at these games being this barrier and trust me, I'm not volunteering to be it, but somebody to be like is this person a pussy, right? And you know I use this foul language and say these things a lot. I you know, don't take it the wrong way, boys and girls, but it is what it is right.

Speaker 3: 1:00:54

We're simulating warfare. If you're offended by this, maybe you should be simulating something else, right? Actually, I could go for one of those simulations right now, but anyways, you know I want people to show up and play the fucking game. If you don't have gear like vet yourself out. You know Max is a good example. Max had a hard time for a while with his pace. Max keeps a blistering pace, but regulating that to go for like the massive games was challenging. So you know he has enough respect for himself and our team to say like what his limit is. I think people need to be honest with themselves and be like hey, you know I can't do this. There's no fucking shame for that. Like we're sitting at action area right now. You want a two hour long game? There's a thousand of them here.

Speaker 1: 1:01:46

Oh yeah, lots going on right now, that's for sure.

Speaker 3: 1:01:48

Like come play, maybe the 24 hour game ain't for you, and keep this in mind. You know the more serious games the milsim wests and things like this that are 48 hours right. 24 hours ain't a long time right For some of us. You know we have young daughters that have sleepovers and the girls are out bouncing on the bed for 24 hours. If you, as a grown man, can't keep yourself awake when you're head up like a newborn fucking baby, let's rethink things here.

Speaker 1: 1:02:15

If I could stay up for easily 24 to 48 hours in college, I definitely could do it for an event.

Speaker 3: 1:02:24

Yeah, you can play Diablo for hours we can get through this.

Speaker 1: 1:02:28

boys and girls, we'll do it together 100%, and I think that can kind of relate back to the game host too. So game hosts and vetting or at least putting out a description of what people are actually gonna go through, might stop some people from coming, and that's not a bad thing. Game host shouldn't be doing this to make fucking money. Okay, amen, it should be about providing a milsim experience for the community. I'll tell you right now, I own two airsoft fields. Okay, they are not fucking money makers in any way, shape or form.

Speaker 1: 1:03:12

Okay, I have a different business, nine to five that pays my bills. The only reason we do this is for the community to have a place to play and because I'm fucking obsessed with airsoft. Okay, I love playing it. That's the only reason I started this thing. So if game hosts give more of a realistic description of an expectation for the player, then I think that the players that aren't going to play the full event might be swayed to come to that event if they know that there's gonna be a certain amount of this, that and this that has to be done. What do you guys think about that?

Speaker 3: 1:03:54

I think for sure. I think we've let ourselves down by the elders in the community not saying things.

Speaker 1: 1:04:01

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:04:02

And I think a lot of that is pushed back because there's a lot of fucking rookies that walk around like they know what the fuck they're talking about they're king shit yeah. Like oh yeah, I've been playing for two years. I have $24,000 night vision. You have shit between your ears too. Yeah, Right, Like you have to sign out there for army issue surplus. Go to army issue surplus. Look at a three day assault pack.

Speaker 2: 1:04:22

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:04:23

Three days. You're going to a 24 hour mil sim and you're packed for a fucking month.

Speaker 1: 1:04:29

Oh my God the 90 liter rucksack.

Speaker 3: 1:04:32

You can go to battle in the real world Big boy stuff, yeah, with a three day assault pack for three days, it's all in the fucking name. Yet you can't go seven hours of being awake before you need to stop and have the Kobe Marushi barbecue at the side of the fucking road there we have a problem, ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 1: 1:04:53

We have a big problem in Ontario Airsoft and we're trying to claw our way out of that end of it. It's hard to you need to make sure that that number is what the player is getting. Okay, and I don't mean fucking fancy pants, patches and shit like that. I mean true, fucking hardcore gameplay that they're playing for. So they should have an action packed game, not just physically but mentally for what they're charging. That's what they should be charging for. You shouldn't be.

Speaker 1: 1:05:31

I gotta charge $225 a ticket because each faction is getting a patch and everybody's getting a doodle book and you're getting a fucking M81, fucking pair of sunglasses. You know what I mean. Like, that shit needs to fucking stop. You need to. Just the field needs to make what the field needs to make, right and other than that. Honestly, the rest of the money should go to props and making that game work. Okay, if you're doing this to make money, like Mike said earlier, to buy your fucking you know your team, to get Gucci shit and all that stuff, all the money that you make as a game host which is fuck all should go to the next game and your game should just consistently get better, right? I'm just putting that out there and I'm sure I'm going to get flack for it, but I really honestly don't give a fuck.

Speaker 3: 1:06:27

I hope you get flack because I think I think it's important for people to realize who's got a problem with this. Yeah, these are the same people that are walking away with 10, 15, $20,000 a game. I'm okay with that, but you know people got to make money. I'm not naive. I think people's time is valuable, but you're not billing at a lawyer's rate, right? If you're putting in time and effort, make some money for yourself. You know your efforts shouldn't go unnoticed. I don't think anybody would have a problem with that, but add some substance to it. If it's like the difference between I can spend $100 at a game or 120 because I get a fucking patch, keep your patch. Give me my $20 back.

Speaker 1: 1:07:10

Can I refund the patch?

Speaker 3: 1:07:12

I'm sorry I don't wear anybody's patch, but my teams, I enjoy it, I like it. It's cool, I like it, but maybe included or don't do it at all. Yeah Right, I don't need a baggie, I don't need to feel like I. Just I was five years old and went to the dentist office. Get my little dental floss and toothbrush there. Fuck your garbage, right, you know what Substance Give me? Give me. Give me a grenade, give me some smoke grenades. There you go. A lot of players don't buy these things because airsofters are, by and large, young people and they're kind of fucking broke. Maybe if we if we included with a couple players here, at random, let's say, hand out a couple of grenades to add ambience to it, add effect to the grenade what a great way to get Pyro out across the field right and put them in the hands of people that otherwise maybe never would have thrown it.

Speaker 1: 1:08:00

And force recon is really actually good for that. I'm going to name drop that 150 smoke grenades were handed out at fucking daybreak alone and I was on game control for that. That, honestly, that type of shit adds another element. Just be like you did something fucking cool. That was a cool kill. Here's a fucking smoke grenade. Go fucking hook it in that trench. You know what I mean and you see it in their eyes.

Speaker 3: 1:08:24

You see it when they give it to some you know 16, 17 year old kid, that is net. They don't have $25 to buy one grenade that they throw and it's gone. Yeah, you give it to them and they throw that first one. They're like I get it now. It clicks right. So, yeah, good on them for that. That's just one of a billion examples of how we could wisely use that money. But there's only one way you shouldn't. Don't line your pockets. Yeah, you're not helping the community, you're not helping economy around airsoft, that's for sure. We don't get better because we're all a little broker and went to your event, right.

Speaker 1: 1:08:57

The other thing I kind of don't understand about the high ticket prices is if you want numbers at your game, wouldn't you make it affordable to get more players to come? Or are you going to put a price tag? Because I'll tell you right now I know five full squads that aren't going to a major event this year just because of the price of it.

Speaker 3: 1:09:23

Yeah, I mean we've backed out of events or at least we've looked at ourselves and be like we're not, we're not fucking doing this, because the price point, you know, it's the pot calling the kettle black. Because you know we're we, we just shot the podcast with you earlier. We're going to be running an event. It's not going to be cheap, yeah, but there's a difference. It's not cheap, but if you don't believe me, buy once and never again. If you don't, if you don't experience it, you'll see the money spent, yeah Right, it's well spent. So I think that's the difference. If I knew, if I knew in my heart of hearts it was going to be, you know everything I wanted it to be, I'd spend everything. Right, I'd spend every penny they asked for. Yeah, but there's apprehension because the community is being scolded.

Speaker 3: 1:10:06

The communities had a lot of new hosts with really limited or no experience in a larger scale. Pop up, they're, they're overnights, right, they're um, they show up and, like that one at Clarington we did a while ago, like I don't know who the fuck these guys are. They just show up and all of a sudden they're hosts. I don't know who you are, but fuck you. Um, it's just shit, it's robbery. It's not fair to do this to new players. Please start out, you know, don't shy away from hosting Step up.

Speaker 1: 1:10:34

But find your ground. I think the best thing to do and that's what I I kind of did was I sat back and I watched, I listened and I played. And then I got on to the other end of it like game control, slash host, slash game help, with some of the other event hosts and I kind of seen the ropes of what to do and what not to do like, especially like green mile, like I want to mention green mile. That event wouldn't even exist today if, if we weren't involved in it, cause we were the only ones that had fucking vehicles back then for the very first one. So the very first green mile I was two I C for, and then actually last minute the guy backed out so I ended up fucking leading it, and then last year and the year before that, so there's been three, and then this year will be a change.

Speaker 3: 1:11:29

And that's the collaboration right. These are hosts working with the community within the community.

Speaker 1: 1:11:34

That's what we need right.

Speaker 3: 1:11:36

You're not out there to pillage the community. You're there to coexist and be part of the community, work with them, work for them.

Speaker 1: 1:11:43

And pick the right kind of people or crews or vetted teams to kind of lead in your games as an example. That way they can kind of you know, in a rude way heard the rest of the people that are kind of lost with their guns in the fucking air just shooting up doing nothing. You know what I mean. So that's very important for game hosts to kind of wrap their head around. But we're kind of getting off topic a little bit. What do we go? We went over.

Speaker 1: 1:12:10

You particularly work with two-ish teams. You do play with a lot of other teams, but mainly as far as training goes, we kind of stick to, you know, a certain group Now that may grow or that may shrink in the future, who knows but it's just always good to play with and against those teams, to kind of push yourself so to have other teams that you can kind of go up against. You know what I mean. On certain games you could have a bunch of newbies versus, you know, airsofters that have been there for a good old time. Like I'll go and sign up for the newbies. You know what I mean, just to give it a little bit of a hustle. Is there any other hosts or teams that you can kind of, in your head, off the bat, want to work with out of the blue.

Speaker 3: 1:13:01

Yeah, um. So I have a profound respect for, for a lot of teams out there. You know and I don't want it being misconstrued that I'm sort of fucked this and you know you're pussy, whatever there's also a lot of teams that I have a tremendous, tremendous respect for Um. We've had a fantastic time playing with um with the cry wolf guys in the past. You know Jody's crew they're. They're really, really rock solid. Oh yeah, um. We we've played with the ink guys. You know recently, um, that was at daybreak, I believe it was, wasn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:13:32

Daybreak and nightfall.

Speaker 3: 1:13:33

Daybreak and nightfall. You know, it was really good working with those guys, all your guys, the light fighter guys. Um, cal and Echo are very interchangeable, like we are. We're so embedded that I don't know it's like it's like I have a fire team with them. It's weird, it's. It's like they're we're essentially the same team, but we're not the same team, um, so we we work with a lot of teams. Um, we work with a lot of teams that are serious, serious teams. Um, we've also been been privileged enough to found and start a lot of other teams that aren't our own right. So we're willing to work with anybody. We want to work with everybody, um, and in fact, anybody, anybody. Literally, if you ever want to, just, you know, run some shit or do some training, or, you know, shoot the breeze, I don't care. Reach out to us right, a hundred percent. I don't have an email. I don't want you emailing me and I don't really care. Figure it out, find a way to get ahold of me, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:14:28

It's very so. The way we get ahold of them is we have a O light and it's the 25,000 lumen O light, and then we just cut a cardboard ammo and we taped it to the front and we flash it in the air and then this motherfucker shows up. So that's how we get ahold of Mike.

Speaker 3: 1:14:45

That's exactly what it is. But you know, at the same time, like you know, my, my running theme is consistent Don't be a pussy. Yeah, that's all I care about. You know, show up at a game. I don't care if it's your first ever game. You bought your gun at Walmart that afternoon and spray painted it, and it's still wet. Just have the guts to say it. Yeah, you do that. You're already ahead, right and we'll. We'll help you. We'll help you in any way we can. We'll help anybody any way we can. We're here for the sport.

Speaker 1: 1:15:11

And that's the point that I was kind of trying to stumbling through, asking you that retarded question. But you guys are out to help anybody, so on the field you come up, there's a new team that are on the side that you signed up with. You guys are tasked the same. You guys have no issues taking them under your wing, giving them some sort of instruction and sending them in the right direction. Or do you try to avoid doing stuff like that on the field.

Speaker 3: 1:15:37

So we're willing to help anybody who's willing to accept help. You know, if you guys are bumping around the woods there, just come up to us, be like hey guys, look, we're a bunch of pussies, help us out. You got it, we'll help you out, right, I'll call JPMX. Or look, these bitches need help over here, let's sort them out, right, but if you're going to be there going, well, excuse me, I've been playing airsoft for six months now. My cracking shoots way better than anything you have.

Speaker 3: 1:15:59

Like, I don't care, I don't hear it, you don't get the time of the day, you're not worth it, right, um, that's the problem and I don't want to be that way. Right, we both start off on the same way. It is what it is. You know, you never know who you're going to meet on the airsoft field. We've all made amazing friends on the airsoft field, lifelong friends on the airsoft field. So you know, let's start the same way, with all being honest with each other, right, um, if you need help, ask for help, yeah, the one thing I'll guarantee is you'll get it. I will never turn you away. We'll answer anything. You want to try out gear? You want to look through our thermals? You want to look through, we're okay, no problem.

Speaker 1: 1:16:40

As long as you're willing to receive the help.

Speaker 3: 1:16:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:16:44

And not combat it.

Speaker 3: 1:16:45

Exactly, don't. Don't be one of those. Ah yeah, it's not bad, you know. My psionics, though, is pretty good. Your psionics is a fucking paperweight. Throw that shit out. I wouldn't use it to prop my door open, very true.

Speaker 4: 1:16:56

That actually kind of goes back to what I said when, when you were asking about joining the team and it's not they were not standoffish in the way that they were dicks. It was that you had to be willing to listen and willing to learn. And my kid said you have two ears and one mouth, so if you, if you're having issues, voice your issue, but then don't try and say oh, no, no, no, it's, let's do it this way. If you're asking for help, you know, listen to it and really try and absorb it, uh, and and see what that that can do for you.

Speaker 1: 1:17:27

For sure, max, you got anything to add to uh being in the woods and and uh kinda being a mentor for a law squad.

Speaker 2: 1:17:36

Moreover, everyone's got to remember, like this whole attitude of like oh fuck everybody else where the shit and like we're too cool to talk to you and whatever, that's not a good long-term strategy. If you look at airsoft, you can't play airsoft by yourself. If you're going to woods on your own, you're on the woods on your own. You're not playing airsoft. So you have to be kind to the people around you. You have to encourage other people to come out to the vent, be friendly, be welcoming and, yeah, just encourage the community to grow because like, like like Mike was pointing out, like when we started, airsoft was only once a month, it was invite only. You had to be on a certain website to get in, and now you can play airsoft wherever you want, any day of the week, pretty much.

Speaker 3: 1:18:23

Yep.

Speaker 2: 1:18:24

So it didn't get there by accident. I got there by us nurturing the community and by helping you grow and encouraging new players and handing down stuff to people who needed it and giving people rides and stuff like that. So just be careful, care for other people around you and help help the community grow.

Speaker 1: 1:18:45

Definitely, definitely good advice. You want to help the community grow, as long as that community member wants to help. Because if they're going to be that guy that's just strong headed, that's just going to have whatever you tell them in one ear out the other, then that's kind of going against what we're trying to achieve as one solid community in this community.

Speaker 2: 1:19:05

I was going to be honest with you. The number like it might happen sometimes, but I don't think you should lead this way to you Like if, if you're like hey, buddy, I think your scope is the scope's a little loose, and he's like oh yeah, that's fine, fuck off, cool story, bro. Have a good time. But the next two people that I correct that actually take my help. It's going to be worth it for me for sure, because those two people are coming from a siege background.

Speaker 2: 1:19:30

Like I've spoken to like literally thousands of people at siege, I can count the number of times someone's been rooting me on like one hand.

Speaker 1: 1:19:38

That's good.

Speaker 2: 1:19:39

And meanwhile I think, like a lot of teams have actually sprouted just for me, encouraging people and helping them zero their hop up and showing them how to zero their scopes and how to stand, how to hold their pistol. Like small stuff like that goes a long way for people.

Speaker 3: 1:19:54

For sure. Yeah, that's a good example. Like Max is a pillar in the community for that, you know, because he's working at siege. He's interfaced with thousands of players, right, you can imagine if, if I'm pretty quick to discount these barbecues at the games just because they're so hilarious. But you know what? The one thing you know, reflecting back on it, I don't see is that everybody walks by them and goes look at those fucking guys. I don't think I recall people walking up to them saying hey guys, what, what? Maybe we should pack this up and like let's get going. Yeah, very true, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:20:28

You know, maybe Max is showing me the light here a bit and maybe I'll walk up to them and give them the big old fuck you to their face right and tell them to get their shit together.

Speaker 1: 1:20:36

Maybe that's what they need. Maybe they need to be told because they haven't been told, that that is just not right at an event.

Speaker 3: 1:20:43

Yeah, you know it, it's on us, right, it is on our backs, on our shoulders, as elders in the community, to get this sport moving and keep it moving in the right direction right, and historically the sport's done really, really well. I find that there's ebbs and flows and everything, and right now you know you made a good point earlier that, with the economy the way it is, now is a really good time to double down on that and make sure that we're staying tight, staying positive, right, working together.

Speaker 1: 1:21:13

For sure, and because we are getting super long, let's do this final little chat about our favorite game. Let's talk about Brian's series Deadfall, because we didn't really get to chat about this year's Deadfall. You guys were right beside me. How was that game for you guys?

Speaker 4: 1:21:36

I had a fantastic time. I was kind of shocked with our turnout, but of course

The Airsoft Experience

Tactical Brotherhood: Team E.C.O's Rise in Ontario's Airsoft Scene

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